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Work worries and a quote

Our computers were 'updated' to make them more accesable and friendly.  To make the check-out faster and more effective, to make things more enjoyable for our guests.  Let me tell ya, it ain't working.  shakes head  I just don't know, they are...difficult and temperamental.  They shut you out when you lest expect them to and then you have to relog in, which takes up quite a lot of time.


I hate it.  I absolutely despire, revile, detest, and hate this new programing, though I do like having a scanner b/c it does reduce a bit of the searching for the items on the many (many) numerous menus on the computer.  But the print is impossibly tiny and the colors they used, not the best. Grey on black, oh yeah, like that makes sense.

It's annoying.  That's what it is.

This new system has made things more difficult, even if the scanner has relieved us of some of the pressure of actually typing in the numbers on it.  We still end up having to type in numbers in order to give discounts, because who works and carries their card with them at all times?  Especially if you're only going on a 15 minute break?  Those cards are thin paper, not made for constant carrying around in one's pocket.  It ain't a credit card, people.  Easily damanged-and harder to replace

But being at butt monkey status means that I don't have a voice to express my displeasure.

Of course, I am not the only one upset with.  Most of the people I work with are annoyed by it b/c it means that they have to carry their card.  Or give us their number for us to type in.  Either way, its time consuming b/c we've got to open another menu for that option and then another one when we've selected the appropiate option.  And it takes forever to warn up and sometimes doubles up on orders when we only needed one item.  Of course, we can't void the order-we have to void the item, bit by bit.

Yeah, this is really saving us time.  (sarcastic tone)

And now for the quote, which is what I'm sure people would rather hear about.


"Labyrinth of Evil" by James Luceno, pg. 170-171:


Sidious turned to Dooku, grinning malevolently.  "Their single mindedness will deliver them into our hands, Lord Tyrannus.  We will set our trap for them on Naos Three."

Dooku allowed his skepticism to show.  "As remote a world as can be found in known space, my lord."

"Nevertheless, Kenobi and young Skywalker will find their way to it."

Dooku decided to take it on faith.  "What would you have me do"

"Nothing more than make arrangements-for you are needed elsewhere.  Employ outsiders."

Dooku nodded.  "Is is done."

"One small addendum.  See to it that Obi-Wan Kenobi ceases to be an irritant."  Sidious sneered the name.

"He represents so forceful a threat to our plans?"

Sidious shook his head.  "But Skywalker does.  And Kenobi...Kenobi has been a father to him.  Orphan Skywalker once and for all, and he will shift."


"To the Dark Side."

"An apprentice?"

Sidious gazed at him.  "In good time, Lord Tyrannus.  All in good time.


Two things struck me about this particular passage in the book.

First off, for all of Sidious "amazing" farsighted abilities, he sure didn't get the bond between Anakin and Obi-Wan did he?

The true extent of it that Dooku began to grasp later on while watching them on Tythe searching for him.  While watching them fight the droids he'd sent after them, the unity of their motions that perfectly complimented each other, that compensated for the others weaknesses.  He saw the true extent of their partnersip-the depth and breadth of it-that they were balanced together.

And yet, SIdious saw more than others did.

He realized that if you take Obi-Wan out of the equation, you leave Anakin completely vulnerable.  That the bond between them was keeping Anakin on the side of the Jedi.  Thus, the continual orders to kill Obi-Wan.  (Not to mention, he wanted to make him pay for killing Maul.)  He wanted Anakin orphaned and alone-I firmly believe that he got the Tusken Raiders to kidnap and torment Anakin's mother knowing that it would make him vulnerable.  He knew that it would deeply affect Anakin-especially since he couldn't help her out.

He encouraged a bitterness in him towards the Jedi Order, towards the restrictions they placed upon him.

And yet, Sidious did not take into account Anakin's determination to keep Obi-Wan alive and at his side.  It was not until much later-in "RotS" to be precise-when Anakin made it quite clear that he valued Obi-Wan over everything that Sidious realized he had to do something else.  ("His fate will be the same as ours"  "And drop Obi-Wan?  Not in this milenium.)  He had to separate them before he could tempt Anakin to fall to the Dark Side.

Because as long as Obi-Wan was with him, Anakin would stay strong.  Stay firmly on the side with the Jedi.

And secondly, the start of Sidious' betrayal of Dooku has begun here-or at least, this is were I started to twig to it.  He never outright agrees or disagrees with Dooku about Anakin becoming his-meaning Tyrannus'-apprentice.  We know from the "RotS" novelization that Dooku was expecting to become Anakin's Master.  Yet, that is not the way of the SIth.  There can only be two-and the fact that Dooku does not know this-or acknowledge it-reveals his own naiveness in the business of being a Sith.

Interesting that all of SIdious' apprentices are innocent and naive in some way.  They all believe in what they are doing for him and with him.  They believe that Sidious is on their side-that he will help them.  That he will teach them all that he knows, that he will guide them along the path towards achieving their goals.

For Maul, it was simply this-revenge on the Jedi.  Very single minded is Maul.  There is no questioning him about it.  He is Sith, they are the Jedi and his enemies.  Therefore, they must be disposed of.

For Dooku, it was the reorganization of the Galaxy-making it a government of man and to no longer live simply by the way of the Force, to allow it to dictate the path one should take. He no longer wants to live complacently.

For Anakin, it was merely to save Padme and Obi-Wan.  To a lesser extent, he wished to preserve the Republic, to bring peace to the Galaxy.

Yet, all of them were betrayed.

All were decieved.

Sidious is only interested in Sidious' welfare.



( 61 comments — Leave a comment )
May. 29th, 2006 07:13 am (UTC)
reply - 1st half
The people at your work who came up with the system must be related to the new stupid VP over our section at Bank of America, who wants to get rid of our shift (the most productive shift there is, the one that gets roughly 50% of all the work that comes into that place DONE - unlike first shift, which gets less than a fourth of all total work accomplished, and second, which accounts for about a third of the total workflow). It must be a universal law or something. Those involved in management or who have high positions in businesses must be totatl morons about what actually WORKS.

And I seem to be over my character limit. *Sighs* So I'll just split this in half, here.
May. 29th, 2006 07:14 am (UTC)
Reply - 2nd half

As for the quote -

Sidious never quite gets it. Even in RotS. If he had, he wouldn't have let Obi-Wan go free in the aftermath of Mustafar, even to keep Anakin Vader and stuck with him. He would have found a way to hunt him down and dispatch him, instead of simply diverting Vader from trying to find Obi-Wan. But because he never really got it, never understood how much Obi-Wan loved Anakin - enough to sacrifice his life. Enough to see to it that his boy was raised in such a way that he would be able to love Anakin Skywalker enough to bring him back and explode Vader for the lie that he was. Enough to see to it that if the boy somehow failed, the girl would have enough of a hold over Luke to be able to save both Luke and Anakin, by coming after them, if that became necessary - he constantly underestimated Obi-Wan. And so he didn't see how much of a threat Luke was (and in this Luke truly was a weapon, aimed and loosed by Obi-Wan himself, despite what anyone might've thought or said about it) until it was too late.

The weird thing about this whole rule of two thing, from what I gather, is that it stopped being enforced after Sidious was made Plageuis' apprentice. Plagueis either let Sidious take Darth Maul as his apprentice in an effort to keep him occupied and hopefully keep him from turning on him, so that he (Plagueis) would be free to continue his experiments with manipulating life, or else he was so engrossed with his experiments that he didn't notice when Sidious took Maul as his apprentice. Either way, the timeline of known events in the EU is pretty clear on the fact that Plageuis was still alive when Sidious first took Maul as his apprentice. And after he seduced Dooku to the Dark Side, to replace Maul, he and Dooku had and made use of a variety of Dark Jedi and Dark Adepts who were trained to some extent in the Dark Side, like apprentices would be. Dooku had control over a band of what the SW Wiki calls "Dark Acolytes" - including Asajj Ventress, Sev'rance Tann, Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos, Tol Skorr, Kadrian Sey, Artel Darc, Karoc and Vinoc, Saato, Trenox, and others. It's like . . . the rule stopped being applied completely, once Sidious entered into the picture. And even though Vader was his only real apprentice, during the time of the OT, he also had all of those Dark Adepts who worked for him - the Hands, the Inquisitors, the Prophets of the Dark Side, the elite among his guard, etc. Sidious broke the rule. I guess one could argue that this is the reason why the Sith ultimately failed - because in breaking the rule, he so weakened the Sith that the only ones to survive the "treachery" of Vader were really only half (or even less) trained Dark Siders?

I'm not sure how long Sidious was planning on recruiting Anakin. He certainly didn't protest about the possibility of Anakin being killed, on several missions that he went on with Obi-Wan (as his Padawan) that went against part of his plans for masterminding the downfall of the Republic and the Jedi. I think, though, that by the time of AotC, he was probably already half convinced that Anakin was the one he wanted for his real apprentice. He just used Dooku because he was the most useful tool available to him at that moment in time. But since Palpatine himself asked for Obi-Wan and Anakin as Padme's bodyguards, I seriously think he was setting Anakin up for a fall to the Dark Side already even then. Since I honestly think that Palpatine probably had a hand in Shmi's death, I'm doubly certain of it. Dooku didn't really start to twig to it until it was already far too late (though I think he clearly wanted Obi-Wan to join him, so that they could destroy Palpatine and Dooku would become the new head honcho, as early as AotC), but I bet Palpy was sure of it far earlier than that.

He just thought that everyone was a tool to be used and then discarded.
Jun. 1st, 2006 09:37 pm (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half
I don't know. I think he was far more concerned with making sure his new 'toy' would live to be of some use to him to worry over Obi-Wan. This is kind of his Acilles' heel, this constant underestinmaitng of Obi-Wan. This constant *never* probbing to see beneath what he had already probbed to find out.

He stopped at Padme, forbidden love, and the marriage. That's where the weakness was-therefore, he wasn't interested in going any further than that.

Oh, but he did know that Luke was a threat-he mentions it in "ESB". I just don't think he knew what *kind* of threat he was until it was far to late for him to do a thing-like when he was thrown over by Vader.

Quite honestly, I don't think Plegius noticed b/c this is Sidious. And no one really notices what he's doing, he is that subtle and good. Do they really count them as Sith though? I know that in the CW cartoon (first one), Dooku laughed at the idea of Ventress as a Sith. Said she possessed some of the attributes of one, but she was not a Sith, though she'd get to carry two red lightsabers. Like do the gray Jedi really count as Jedi? In their very (very) dicoctomized(sp?) world, if you weren't totally one, you were the other. Anything that fell in between was just htat, in between the two, neither truly Sith nor truly Jedi.

I always thought of that as his way of testing him, to see what he was truly capable of doing/being. How far would he fall away from the teachings of the Jedi in order to succeed. If he would actually call upon the DS of the Force to help him out if it became necessary. He probably had his eyes on him as far back as "TPM".

They were his own toys, made for his own personal uses and then discarded when they were 'no good' to him. Arrogance. Sheer arrogance and waste.
Jun. 1st, 2006 09:22 pm (UTC)
Re: reply - Work idiocies
(Is that even a proper word?)

I'll never get it if I live to be as old as Yoda how on Earth they actually think any of this stuff actually makes things better! The only thing I can come up with is that these systems and decisions were made by MEN.

And as we all know, they have an incurable inability to THINK!
Jun. 1st, 2006 10:15 pm (UTC)
Re: reply - Work idiocies
If it isn't, it should be. *Nods firmly*

Me either. Usually I just accept that it's men and try to leave it at that. Otherwise, I tend to want to pull out handfuls of hair, and I LIKE my hair and want to keep it attached to my head, thanks very much!

Testosterine poisoning. It's eaten up all their brain cells. I swear that's what it is!
Re: reply - Work idiocies - eryn_skynobi - Jun. 5th, 2006 04:45 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: reply - Work idiocies - polgarawolf - Jun. 9th, 2006 05:47 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: reply - Work idiocies - eryn_skynobi - Jun. 12th, 2006 05:13 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: reply - Work idiocies - polgarawolf - Jun. 17th, 2006 03:32 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: reply - Work idiocies - eryn_skynobi - Jul. 6th, 2006 07:59 am (UTC) - Expand
Jun. 2nd, 2006 01:08 am (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half (ist half of reply)
That's true - about him always underestimating Obi-Wan, I mean. But in spite of the sliced off limbs and the pyrotechnics when his hair caught on fire, I honestly have a hard time believing that Anakin was as injured as all that. Note: in spite of what are supposedly life-threatening injuries that require all kinds of gadetry to allow Vader to function at least semi-normally, Palpatine does not put Anakin into a bacta tank at any point in the aftermath of Mustafar. And, as we know, bacta is the miracle drug that can pretty much cure all bodily ills, though it can't regenerate lost limbs. Bacta use yields quick, often scarless (always scarless, if applied quickly enough) healing of even the most severe wounds. Both external and internal, according to the way it's used in the EU. Palpy's a smart s.o.b. If Anakin had really been in danger of dying, he would've had him in a bacta tank so fast that the splash would've hit Padme's ship as Obi was hightailing it out of there. I really do believe that Palpy purposefully had those med-droids give Anakin third-rate mechnos to replace the cut off legs and arm (what he had definitely wasn't up to parr with the original mechno that he got after AotC, from what we see in RotJ, when Luke cuts Vader's hand off and the bloody thing is all smoking, shorting out wires, for pity's sake!) and shove him into that suit without any real attempt being made at really healing him, first. That's why he has breathing problems and so much scarring, etc. Because Palpy didn't even try to heal him. He just made the droids attach crappy mechnos and stuffed him into the suite so that his body would have no real chance to heal, only to sit there in that suit and be trapped by it because he'd become utterly dependent on it to keep on living. I swear that's why Palpy did it, as a way to keep Anakin/Vader dependent on him. He already had the armor made - he has to have already had it made - so you know Palpy was planning on trapping Anakin somehow or another. If Obi-Wan hadn't shown up on Utapau, I'll bet you anything Sidious would've had somebody else lurking around, waiting for the go-ahead to attack Anakin and hurt him badly enough for Palpy to be able to justify putting him in that blasted suit.

I take that as Palpy being aware that Luke is powerful enough in the Force to be a possible threat to him, if allowed to grow up enough to learn how to use all of that power. Since Luke is Anakin's son, after all, he's probably potentially more powerful that Sidious, like Anakin was. But he doesn't get that Luke is dangerous and a potential weapon through Anakin. If he did, he would've refused to acknowledge that Luke's the son of Skywalker, and would've had him killed instead of messing about with all of this talk of turning him into an ally.

You know, that about Palpy being able to keep Maul a secret from his Master makes sense. But for the other - if the inbetweens count or not? I really honestly don't know, when it comes to the Sith. Though with the Jedi, once a Jedi is always a Jedi unless one is of the rare Lost 20. The others - Grey Jedi - are in voluntary exile from Coruscant and distance themselves from the High Council and its rule. But they are still Jedi. It's those that any Grey Jedi might choose to teach that I become a bit more fuzzy on . . . And with the Sith, I honestly don't know. I just think that it's extremely bizarre that an order that nearly wiped itself out with infighting and survived only because it cut its ranks down to only 2 at a time would've allowed the existence of others who, even if they weren't Sith, were still apprenticed enough to've learned some of the ways of the Sith and gained enough ambition to want to become Sith themselves and maybe even figure out a way to kill of the two real Sith in order to make that wish a real possibility.

And of course I've gone over my limit for characters, AGAIN . . .
Jun. 2nd, 2006 01:09 am (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half (2nd half of reply)
I know Ventress truly wanted to be a Sith - she asks Dooku about it more than once, in the EU. Which of course indicates that she's not in the same class as them. But still, what if Dooku had said yes? Or (more likely to cause a real uproar) what if Dooku had been able to sway Obi-Wan to his side, before the attack on Geonosis? And what if Obi-Wan had agreed to be made Dooku's apprentice in order to find out who the Sith Lord was responsible for Qui-Gon's death and all of the rest of this mess? What if the two, teamed up, had gone after Sidious and - because Anakin would go where Obi-Wan led, be it through light or shadow or into the malestrom of hell itself - actually managed to cut Sidious down, between them? Obi-Wan would be Dooku's apprentice and Anakin would be his apprentice. So wouldn't all three then be Sith, even as they were cutting Sidious (another Sith) down? It'd surely be a classic example of the old manner of infighting that'd nearly destroyed the Sith once before . . . *Shrugs, a bit helplessly*

You know, I've never been able to decide if it makes more sense to me for Anakin to have been "created" through the Force-manipulations of Plageuis or of Sidious. I lean towards Plageuis, since Sidious supposedly finally only killed his Master because he was afraid that this new power his Master had learned - the ability to use the Force to influence midi-chlorians and create new life, with however much Force-potential was desired - would be put to use to create a replacement for him, someone who would become Plageuis' new apprentice and the ultimate Sith Lord. (Now THERE'S a truly horrifying thought. Anakin as brought up by the man who raised up Sidious. *Shudders, full bodied, wide-eyed and absolutely terrified by even the idea*) I bring this up, because we'd know Palpy's intentions towards Anakin from the start depending on which man was responsible. If Plageuis' experiments caused Shmi to quicken with child, then it's entirely possible that Sidious wouldn't have known about Anakin until he was brought to his attention, during TPM - which would explain why he was dicking about with Maul instead of stealing Anakin from Shmi and raising him up to be a perfect vessel of hatred and rage, wholly obedient to his will and without ambition beyond the need to perform his Master's will and to kill/destroy the Jedi, just as Maul as been, but even more powerful and even more valuable to him because of that. In which case, Palpy would've started researching and keeping an eye on Anakin in the aftermath of Naboo, and only gradually become convinced that Anakin was indeed the tool he needed in order to crush the Jedi and bend the galaxy to his will. In which case, yes, those early missions would have all been tests of one sort or another. But if Palpatine was the one who caused Anakin's virgin birth . . . *Shakes head, sickened and vaguely stunned* The implications of that are just too convoluted and amoral and disturbing for me to go into at great deal detail. Suffice it to say that if this were the case then either 1) Palpy was disappointed by Anakin and wasn't sure the boy would be strong enough (or easily enough turned, maybe?) and so kept poking and prodding and testing him, obsesively, to the breaking point if necessary, to be sure if he'd suffice, or else 2) he could see enough of the future that he truly did foresee and plan for essentially everything - including the failure of the Trade Federation blockade at Naboo, the way Padme would be Anakin's Achilles heel, etc. - EXCEPT for what touched on Obi-Wan Kenobi and his ability to shield Anakin from the Dark Side with his love and to love Anakin enough to be willing to sacrifice his own life to make sure that his children became weapons who could turn Anakin back to the Light (freeing Anakin from Sidious forever) and to him again.

And gee, I think maybe my paranoid, conspiracy theorist side may be starting to show . . . *Winces and ducks head sheepishly*

Utter arrogance and complete disregard for anyone other than himself. I can't decide if I'd really want to know what could make someone as utterly heartless as Palpatine/Sidious was, or not . . . I've got a feeling it would give me screaming nightmares, to know what Plageuis did to him, to make him this way.
Jun. 8th, 2006 07:13 am (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half (2nd half of reply)
I think Dooku would have objected to Anakin being with them-telling Obi-Wan that he needed to cut all ties to his past immediately. Though he'd do it-b/c he always follows orders-I have a hard time seeing Anakin accepting it. What gets me about that situation is how *Anakin* would react to seeing the man he loves become that which he has always fought against.

And his reaction to finding out that his trusted advisor is really a Sith bent on killing his beloved Master.

Unless he wanted Anakin to be raised as a slave, to keep him forever in that mindset even as he sought for further power. As long as he had the mind of a slave, he'd never try to rise above it no matter how strong he'd get. B/c even though Sidious was very successful with Maul, I doubt he'd be the same way with Anakin. I think the reason Anakin was so vulnerable is b/c of his past. He'd constantly test Sidious, instead of just accepting the status quo like he always tested his mom. And it's been a long day, so I apologize if any of my answers-past and present-posted today (or whatever) make no sense.

Well, it's easy to let it come out when dealing with a nasty twat like Sidious.

May be Plageuis didn't actually do anything to him, so much as imply things to him. Or worse (depending upon your point of view), may be it was the Jedi Order itself that ruined him b/c they rejected him-for whatever reasons they may have had. And he was willing to do *anything* to show them up. Hate and revenge are very powerful tools in any arsenal.

And in a Sith's? *shudders*
Sep. 14th, 2006 06:07 am (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half (2nd half of reply)
Oh, man, I've GOT to start setting myself limits on these, when I try to type at work . . . This is going to take multiple posts!

Oh, I'm sure Dooku would protest. He's none too fond of Anakin, after all. However, I don't think that Obi-Wan or Anakin would be willing to budge on this. And after all, Dooku really can't say anything about attachments, seeing as how he's cultivating Obi-Wan solely for Qui-Gon's sake. In fact, it would probably only take one of the boys pointing out that Anakin is as much Qui-Gon's legacy as Obi-Wan is to get Dooku to relent. He would not be happy, but he would relent, given the very real possibility of losing Obi-Wan so soon after thinking he has gained him and to Anakin, of all people. Because he would lose him to Anakin. Even if Obi-Wan bent enough to be willing to follow Dooku's lead, in regards to the mysterious Sith Lord who has control over the Senate, he would not unbend enough to be willing to abandon Anakin, not if Anakin were unwilling to be left behind. Of all people, Obi-Wan is the most acute to the pain of being left behind - Qui-Gon left him behind in the warren leading up to that melting pit, on Naboo, and then he left him behind for good and all, by getting himself killed, after all - and he would not abandon Anakin just at Dooku's word. I think it's why Sidious wanted Dooku to try to turn Obi-Wan just then, using just that means. He probably saw what could have been his doom, in the combined strength of his current apprentice, his future apprentice, and Obi-Wan Kenobi. So he made Dooku try only the once, and clumsily and with little finese, so as to drive Obi-Wan as far away from the former Jedi as possible. Given his own means by which to try to appeal to Obi-Wan, I think Dooku could have won him to his side. It's the transition between when they were being held and the supposed execution that's the sticky part in this scenario, because of course Obi-Wan would turn on Dooku immediately if he thought that Dooku was going to allow Anakin to be executed and there's really no way that Dooku could simply take Obi-Wan then and there and go chasing after Sidious without alerting Sidious to a huge change in plans that would put the Sith Master on the alert for a fight. The timing would have to be managed superbly, somehow, so that Dooku would win Obi-Wan to his side, tentatively, and then have to admit that two more intruders (Padme and Anakin) had been caught. Obi-Wan would demand either to see Anakin or for Dooku to let Anakin and Padme go. Dooku would try to demur, but Obi-Wan would probably throw the issue of trust up in his face, and well, since Dooku is asking Obi-Wan to take a lot on faith, he would have no choice but to prove himself trustworthy by allowing Anakin to be escorted in to see Obi-Wan. There would be an argument. Anakin wouldn't be too happy about what's been going on and would probably be in a "kill first, ask questions later" sort of mood, but finding out that a Sith has influence/control over the Senate would vindicate much of his attitude towards the Senate and he would latch upon that and the Council's inability to sense the Sith Master operating right under their noses and he would NOT let go again. You know how Anakin is when he gets an idea into his head. "I'm going with you and that's that, Master. You'll have to kill me if you want to leave me behind." Or something to that effect, anyway. *Shrugs* From that point, the trick would be keeping it from Sidious that Obi-Wan and Anakin are coming back to Coruscant with Dooku and the plans for what would eventually become the Death Star. There are tricks for shielding oneself in the Force, though. And there would be a lot of tumult in the Force from all of the deaths, as the Jedi and the clones try to fight their way through the Separatist stronghold on Geonosis to "save" Obi-Wan and Anakin and Senator Amidala - who would be left behind, as Dooku would not be willing to allow her presence and Obi-Wan would back him on that and Anakin would not want to bring her into such danger, since they are, after all, going after a Sith Master strong enough to hide himself from an entire Temple full of Jedi.
Re: Obi-Wan as Dooku's apprentice - eryn_skynobi - Oct. 1st, 2006 01:57 am (UTC) - Expand
Sep. 14th, 2006 06:09 am (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half (2nd half of reply) cont'd
That would probably also be kind of tricky - they would have to arrange things very carefully, so that it looks like the Jedi and Amidala are being rescued at the same time when in fact only Padme is being left behind to be rescued and Obi-Wan and Anakin are slipping out with Dooku, not really chasing after him. *Shrugs* But I think it could be done. After all, Dooku certainly knew (even if no one else on the entire planet did) that the Jedi and the first generation of their clone army was coming to the rescue, since Sidious would've told him. It was all planned out very carefully that way, after all. *Shrugs* They would just have to be even more careful. And quicker, so as to avoid Yoda. But I think Dooku being careful to drug the arena beasts and then the boys ditching Padme early on as they "escape" would do the trick. After that, Obi-Wan and Anakin would have to retreat into the Force and hide themselves, and then the trick will just be to make sure that they get a holocomm unit set up so that Dooku's encounter with Sidious provides enough evidence that he is, in fact, the Sith Lord and Master and has been planning all of this, including the upcoming Clone Wars, before all three press the attack and lay bare Sidious' identity as Palpatine. After that . . . well, after that I think the galaxy would tumble into Dooku's hands, since he is, after all, the shatterpoint of the entire Separatist movement and by that point will be the only living being still aware of the amount of programming the clones undergo and all that. *Grins, sharkishly* At that point, things could start to really get interesting . . .
Re: Obi-Wan as Dooku's apprentice, 2 - eryn_skynobi - Oct. 1st, 2006 01:58 am (UTC) - Expand
Sep. 14th, 2006 06:11 am (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half (2nd half of reply) second half
I tend to think that Anakin was the product of Plagueis, if he was brought about by any one person in particular. Sidious was just too shocked by the way things went with Naboo (in the novelization as well as the film) for him to have known what/who Anakin was. I honestly don't think he had any idea what Anakin really was until after he got it out of whomever it was he finally got it out of that Anakin might be the Jedi's Chosen One. At first, I think that he was just interested in the boy (and had that line about keeping an eye on him) because he was someone unexpected who'd help to mess up the Sith Lord's plans and in whom the Force was very strong and who was being taken as a Padawan learner even though he was too old and by the person who had, shockingly enough, managed to kill Sidious' apprentice. I honestly think that his plans got knocked way out of whack in TPM because of Obi-Wan's suggestion that they take the damaged ship to Tatooine. I know Naboo is his planet, but I honestly don't think he expected the Jedi to be able to free Naboo from the Trade Federation (at least not without a full-fledged war over the occupation, which would have cost thousands of lives in the end, probably, if not more, because of all the innocents on Naboo either being used as shields and therefore slaughtered or else simply dying of starvation) and I'm sure he wasn't expecting to have to replace Maul quite so early, though he seemed pleased to be presented with the chance to recruit Dooku. I think he wanted Naboo to become a sign of Jedi incompetence and the Republic's failure to be able to protect its own, not a symbol of the ability of the Republic and the Jedi to save a world against impossible odds. He wanted to make Naboo into a banner and to wear that, to add it to his own personal cachet, since he was, after all, the Senator for Naboo and the Chommel Sector. He wasn't expecting Obi-Wan to throw a monkey wrench in the works by taking them to the planet where Anakin Skywalker happened to be waiting for them. And I honestly don't think he was sure, at first, about this whole "Chosen One" business, either, because Force knows he tested the boy enough before he actually started to actively seek out his company and so begin to spin his webs around Anakin's heart and to begin to sink hooks into his spirit, so he could end up making the boy dance to his tune by yanking upon those lines. *Shrugs* I honestly think that Anakin has to have been one of the last efforts of Plagueis, probably his last experiment with the midichlorians, after which Sidious was simply told in broadly sweeping terms of his Master's success at manipulating the midichlorians in such a manner as to engender (and therefore, by logical extension, extend) life. After which he promptly killed his Master, thinking he would be able to piece together all of his Master's experiments and the knowledge he had gained from Plagueis' records, since he of course would not want any "perfect" being created by his Master's will and the midichlorians (and therefore the Force itself) around to perhaps become his rival or replacement. Only Plagueis would have had enough sense not to keep records of all of his work. Or at least not any records that Sidious would be able to access or find (not without destroying the records in the process, anyway). Hence, Palpy's need to muck about with the clones and trying to find a way to move his spirit from his original body into a new, cloned body, since after all his murder of his Master would have effectly put the information he would have needed to sustain his life indefinitely otherwise immediately beyond his ability to reach. And hence, too, his lack of preparation for Anakin Skywalker - and the added need he would've had, once he figured out who/what the boy actually was, to take control of him, since it would be one last act of defiance against his own Master, one last way for him to spit in Plagueis' eyes . . .
Re: Anakin as Plagueis' son 1 - eryn_skynobi - Oct. 1st, 2006 02:00 am (UTC) - Expand
Sep. 14th, 2006 06:12 am (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half (2nd half of reply) second half cont'd
Of course I may be entirely wrong about that (about the whole thing with Anakin existing because of Plagueis' meddling and Palpy figuring it out eventually and using that as another reason to take Anakin's corruption as a sort of very personal revenge, not just against the Jedi but against his own Master, too) and the Luceno book may tell us something else entirely. But as of right now, that's pretty much what makes the most sense, to me.

Too true. Sidious brings out the absolute worst in me. Well, my hatred of him does, anyway. Actually, I think maybe my anger/disappointment at Qui-Gon and the Council might possibly bring out the actual worst in me, in terms of sheer vindictiveness (figuring out ways to make them suffer like the boys have) . . .

I think it was probably all Plagueis. There's no hint of the Jedi being aware of Palpy in any manner other than as a politician, and if he'd been a hopeful who'd been rejected (not accepted at the Temple, like Lorana Jinzler's brother) there would be records of that and somebody who'd remember, after all. But then, that's just me . . .

*Shudders with you* Though they tend to be pretty darn ugly in the hands of a Dark Jedi or Dark Adept, too, all things considered . . .
Re: Anakin as Plagueis' son 2 - eryn_skynobi - Oct. 1st, 2006 02:01 am (UTC) - Expand
Jun. 8th, 2006 06:59 am (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half (ist half of reply)
It wouldn't surprise me either. Look at what he and Dooku did to Grievous. Speaking of the buglike general, did they put Grievous in a bacta tank after his 'accident' that left him so terribly wounded, they had to create a new body for him? I think that's probably what he was doing to Anakin-it would also make sure that the damage would never fully heal, thus keeping the hate for Obi-Wan alive and well. Or something like that. =)

Well, he wanted to kill him until Vader convinced him that he would make an ideal apprentice, seeing that he was the son of Anakin. And I think Palpy has a hard time understanding anything that doesn't directly play into his plans-b/c they don't concern him. It is this blindspot that causes a lot of his problems. He dismisses them as unimportant-yet, they all to often rear up and prove to be a speedbump in his plans/his way. Foolish man.

And yet, it probably is a good thing he is, otherwise, the GFFA would be even more screwed up than it already is.

They may say they are part of the Jedi, but I'm not sure they would actually think of them as *real* Jedi. Whatever that is supposed to mean since those gray Jedi are usually more balanced and in tune with the Force than the actual Jedi are.
Jun. 9th, 2006 11:45 am (UTC)
Re: Reply - 2nd half (ist half of reply)
They definitly set up the whole "accident" - and after Qymaen jai Sheelal survived it with too much of his body intact, they made sure that he was injured enough in his "rescue" that he had to agree to the procedure San Hill offered him, so that he wouldn't have to suffer the indignity of dying helpless in a med center. I haven't read the comics that detail most of the transformation from Qymaen jai Sheelal into General Grievous, but the SW Wiki has a picture from one of them that shows San Hill speaking to him, making the offer, and the ragged remains of I'd say less than half of the Kaleesh's upper body is floating in a round upright tank filled with a bright green liquid. The lighting in the panel is a bit uncertain, but I'd say it's a good bet he's in a bacta tank in a solution of bacta and liquid. And there's another, clearer panel that shows him clearly in a liquid-filled tank, with the same kind of breathing apparatus that Luke is hooked up to in ESB. The article's at http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grievous
The presence of Grievous in the tank like that is what makes me so hyperaware of the fact that Palpy never puts Anakin into a bacta tank, after Mustafar. Instead, we get that horribly gruesome scene where Anakin is laid out on a table and groaning/screaming while droids peel away layers of burnt flesh and clothing that's been scorched into his flesh and slot mechnos onto the ruined stumps of limbs without even bothering to check first to see how well they fit, and etc.

The really weird thing is that Palpy didn't seem to notice Luke until somebody else brought him to his attention and then he promptly told Vader that the son of Skywalker was a threat and must be dealt with. But then Palpy pretty much just as promptly changed his mind about it when Vader made the offer about turning Luke into an ally. That always felt weird to me, even before the prequels came out. I've always kind of wondered if he didn't set the whole thing up just so that Vader would offer that alternative, so he could get started on trying to set Luke up against Vader and replace Vader with Luke, like he finally tried to do in RotJ . . . Palpy has no sense of loyalty, after all. It wouldn't surprise me if he'd set the whole scene up. But you are right about how he doesn't seem to be able to really see things that aren't easily comprehensible from his world view. That's his biggest blind spot. Sith don't really believe in things like the redemptive power of love, so he never sees anything having to do with love as being a real threat to him. Or something like that . . .

*Half snickers and half groans at the thought*

It's really a pity that Lucas didn't try to take more care with things that'd already been firmly established in the EU when he went to write the prequels. *Sighs* Then we wouldn't have so many blasted discrepancies and problem areas (like with the Grey Jedi and the notion that Jedi had children and some entire families managed to find safety in out of the way places, in spite of the Jedi Purge) that could've easily been avoided or smoothed over with just a little more care on the part of Lucas and the prequel EU writers . . . *Sighs* Some days, crap like that really bugs the heck out of me.
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my... - eryn_skynobi - Jun. 15th, 2006 07:06 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my... - polgarawolf - Jun. 16th, 2006 11:38 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my... - eryn_skynobi - Jul. 6th, 2006 07:04 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my... - polgarawolf - Jul. 6th, 2006 07:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my... - eryn_skynobi - Jul. 24th, 2006 05:07 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my... - polgarawolf - Jul. 24th, 2006 05:34 am (UTC) - Expand
Jul. 6th, 2006 07:13 pm (UTC)
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my...
*Shakes head along with you* Anakin probably would've clung to Palpy no matter how badly Palpy "healed" him, since he thought Palpy was all he had left. Unfortunately. *Sighs* It just hacks me off, to realize how badly Palpy treated Anakin and how damaged Anakin's body pretty much needlessly was. Almost more than anything else that Palpy does (with the possible exceptions of the order to slaughter all the children in the Temple too and the okay to destroy Alderaan), the way that he traps Anakin in that suit has the ability to reduce me to almost incoherent rage and disgust over how utterly immoral and selfishly evil Palpy is. I hate that suit. That is the symbol of the depth of Palpy's treachery, to me.

I think you're right about that, by the way. The ability for those who fall to the Dark Side later in life to be redeemed, I mean. I think there's a pretty clear pattern in both the canon and EU about this. With the people who had a close enough to normal childhood or youth to've honestly known love/safety/friendship/loyalty because of at least one other important person in their lives, if given a chance to turn back and a champion to help them, those people can still be reached and redeemed from the Dark Side. Heck, the pattern holds true even with Asajj Ventress of all people, from what we know about her in the comics. She turns because of Obi-Wan and breaks the rage that the Dark Side has fostered in her. Granted, she was pretty much dying at the time, but she still didn't have to help him like she did. And when she managed to heal herself enough to keep from dying, she took her newfound strength and peace in both hands and used it and her supposed death to win freedom for herself, leaving the war and the Republic behind entirely. The only person this pattern doesn't hold true with is Dooku, and I'd frankly I'd say it was a failure mostly on Yoda's fault, since he left something to be desired as a "champion" when it came to someone whose faith could sort of metaphorically light the way back . . . Call me crazy, but I still think that Dooku could have been saved/redeemed, if only he'd had someone who believed in his ability to turn back as much as Luke believed in Vader or Obi-Wan came to believe in the basic underlying goodness of Ventress (beneath all of that pain/anger and the way she'd been used and deliberately misinformed by the Sith). Even Quinlan Vos had the love of someone (the woman who would be the mother of his child) to turn him back from the Dark Side.

I'm always going over the length. *Grumbles mumbles glares at the LJ for having these stupid lengths in the first place*
Jul. 24th, 2006 05:18 am (UTC)
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my...
In one sense, unfortunately, Palpy *was* all he had left-Palpy made sure of that. It irks me that so shortly after he got him new toy, he was ready to trade him in for a new/better/superior model. That and the destruction of a wonderful friendship that meant so much to Anakin and Obi-Wan.

I have a tendency to forgive Yoda b/c I like him and b/c he's so old, he was set in his ways. But, if you believe the JW books, Dooku wasn't even *trained* by Yoda after he came of Padawan age-even though "AotC" seems to hint that he was when the two are talking to each other. But, yeah, I think that they have to hold onto their innocence to be redeemed. It's weird but it's almost like a protective device in them. Love is a redeemer as much as it may condeem a person. I can't help but sometimes compare Willow from Buffy when she went all DS b/c she lost Tara with Anakin. I have nothing against their pairing except for one thing-she said the only good she had, the only good she *was* was with Tara. And now that she was gone, Willow meant nothing, that she was of no worth. That irks me b/c that doesn't speak of love to me but co-dependency, kinda like Anakin with Padme. Neither could see their own worht separate of the person they cared for. As a result when they couldn't work their will, they fell.

The only difference was how their stories ended, in the fight Xander had the strength of pure, unconditional love and conviction to stand up to her and fight for her soul b/c he *knew* that he could. He *knew* that he could reach her, the real her, if he tried. Obi-Wan had never been brought up to believe that way, he'd been brought up to believe that love=attachment=dark side. It makes me wonder how different things could've been had Obi-Wan been able to do what Xander did.

Don't fret about it, I don't mind.
Jul. 24th, 2006 06:07 am (UTC)
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my...
In a sense, yes, but for that sense to hold, Anakin/Vader had to accept the idea that he could not be redeemed, that he didn't deserve to be saved, that he didn't deserve anything else than Palpy, which is what really irks me. Even more than Palpy's callous attitude towards Anakin/Vader, because with Palpy you know he's evil and you know he's not adverse to looking out for a better tool/weapon to trade up to, and since he genuinely expected to find a way to live forever, you know he never expected to have any apprentice that would be anything more than just a tool/weapon. He wanted Anakin mainly because Anakin represented the best way (and the cruelest method) for him to get the Sith's revenge on the Jedi and to pretty much wipe the Jedi out. But I don't think Palpy ever really cared if, in the process of getting Anakin, he had to damage him enough to make it so that Anakin's usefulness to him would be so limited that he would need to be replaced fairly soon afterwards. He just wanted what he wanted at that time. I think, in a way, that Anakin/Vader probably surprised him, in that he embraced the DS as thoroughly as he did and managed to trick himself into hating Obi-Wan so much that he fought to remain Palpy's apprentice and second in power in the galaxy only to Palpy.

Yeah, Dooku's Master is a Thame Cerulian, right? (Blue river, haha, fuuuuny *she declares in an utterly flat voice*) Those ridiculous books set things up so that virutually ever-freakin-body from Dooku to Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan to Mace all got mentored by Yoda in some way, though none of them were actually his Padawans. *Rolls eyes and refrains from launching into a rant on the ridiculousness of making it so that all of the really important Jedi in the cannon have strong ties to this one person* I think you know how I feel about Yoda, at least most of the time, so I'll refrain from verbally smacking him for being so blind to the needs of the Order and the galaxy. I'll just agree that what passes for love in a lot of 'verses isn't really love at all, and that's why it ends up being so terribly destructive.

If Obi-Wan had been able to do what Xander did, he would have saved Anakin on Mustafar. Or broke free of Yoda and Qui-Gon's ghost and gone after Vader while he was still adjusting to that damned suit and hauled his butt away from Palpy and found a way both to heal and redeem him. Or he would have recognized that Anakin was heading for a fall and headed him off at the pass, so to say, but refusing to allow the Council to split them up in the first place during RotS. Or else he would have done something that would have ended up either keeping Anakin away from Palpy or saving him from him, because he would have been able to admit out loud (before it was too late) that he loved Anakin and wanted to help him, and he wouldn't have allowed anything or anyone to stand in his way once he'd made up his mind about it, either. Or in other words, it would've screwed up Lucas's storyline beyond saving and given us something we could REALLY sink our teeth into . . .
Aug. 6th, 2006 09:49 am (UTC)
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my...
It all goes back to the training-once you go dark, there is no going back. Because I seriously doubt anyone thought about how silly that statement was when you had Mace using the DS in his lightsaber form. Or that anyone who had walked that perilous ridge between the two sides ever talked about it. In all honesty, I thought that *that* was the test of a Padawan to become a Knight. They faced the darkness that is inside and conqueored it by remaining true to their ideals. At least, that's what it seemed to imply with both Barriss Offee and Obi-Wan in their separate trials. *shruggs*

Palpy's like the ultimate spoiled child, always looking for a newer, brighter, faster, shinnier toy to play with-and ultimately destroy with his care and play. You know? Totally didn't care-he had that suit all ready for a reason. I mean, his farsight couldn't be *that* great, could it? In other words, he was looking for a way to harm/improve Anakin. *shakes head and wishes he'd have just drowned in the vat of teflon (*snerks* Rise, Teflon Sidious)* I think the sheer strength of Vader/Anakin surprised him-and pleased him to have such a strong apprentice. A strong, loyal, but ultimately crippled apprentice. (Crippled in the sense that emotionally he'd never leave him and physically he was totally dependent upon him.)

But you know what? I don't think he ever managed to fall fully into the DS. I think he fooled himself and Palpy that he had. But I don't think he ever fully embraced it. He stayed to honorable, to willing to play on even ground for all that he did pull a few dirty punches.

Well, all names that are related to a Sith/future Sith in the Galaxy have some hidden meaning. At least, in her world. I think it is utterly possible in their world to have ties to one person-but I also think that they would've had ties to more than just Yoda. The whole Council would've had a hand in their formative years. But using Yoda is an easy out. (Just like I used Mace in "Whatever" when Dooku had that favor to ask of the Council.) Yeah, I do. I wonder if when Yoda dabbled in the DS if it harmed him far more than we were led to believe... And at least some of the loves are destructive-some are healing. Just not the ones that Anakin seeks. Or the Jedi seek to suppress.

May be, if he'd been able to do so in "AotC" or any point before "RotS". Or may be he would've found himself in a much worse situation than they were already in, you know? Palpatine was hellbound to get what he wanted-and he would not hesitate to twist Anakin's devotion to Obi-Wan on its head if he had to. The only reason I think Padme was attacked (for want of a better word) was b/c Palpy got a freakin' clue and realixed that he could not kill Obi-Wan and have Anakin fall. That just wasn't going to cut it. So, he had to manipulate events to separate the both of them. And it worked-b/c the Council was paranoid and afraid of the WRONG people.
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my... - polgarawolf - Sep. 26th, 2006 06:03 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Jedi Trials and the Hell road - eryn_skynobi - Oct. 1st, 2006 11:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Bacta, Palps, and EU. Oh, my... - polgarawolf - Sep. 26th, 2006 06:04 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: A Much Worse Situation - eryn_skynobi - Oct. 1st, 2006 11:04 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: A Much Worse Situation - 2 - polgarawolf - Oct. 26th, 2006 07:17 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: A Much Worse Situation - 2 - eryn_skynobi - Dec. 10th, 2006 07:04 am (UTC) - Expand
Sep. 19th, 2006 06:19 pm (UTC)
Re: reply - Work idiocies
And the bosses all wandered in darkness all of their lives, for lo, they could not understand what they were missing, and their idiocies, in time, doomed them to the darkest pit, while the intelligent remained contentedly within the light, knowing always that the right one plus one equals an OTP forevermore, selah!

*Snickers helplessly*

*Rolls eyes* Actually, that does sound like him, doesn't it? Yeesh! Okay, so messing with the hair is definitely out, then . . .

*Sighs* I keep lists of the better ideas. I try to post them on that adopt a bunny community but usually I forget and just end up sketching out the ideas to other fanfic writers and hoping they'll run with them. *Grins* I gave away pages of possible plotlines to one SW writer, a few months ago, and it took her days to get through it all but at the end she was squeeing rather loudly (her words) so I take that as a safe sign to assume something will eventually come of those plots . . . Can't do much else, at the moment. The characters let me take notes for things meant to happen in the future, after the WiP, but I don't think they'd take too kindly to me trying to write any one-shots. (They know as well as I do that I can't ever shut up and anything meant to be a one-shot would likely end up an ongoing series!) They're easier to keep in line when I behave too, oddly enough . . .
Oct. 1st, 2006 08:04 am (UTC)
Re: Work idiocies
And the rest of the world rejoiced for we had lost the idiots who called themselves our employers and could live peaceably in the content of the OTP’s we so adore. Lost them to a place we don't know of-and do not care to expend the energy to try to find them and bring them out of darkness. Alleluia


*sticks tongue out behind his back while trying to think of something positive to say about the…thing he’s brought into my room* Totally him. May be you should ask Dooku, he’s got to have some blackmail on him.

I get ideas but never get the courage to post them on any kind of adopt community, mainly b/c I think it’ll sit there forever, doing nothing-or someone will adopt it and do something to it that I don’t particularly care for. I hope you hear back from her soon. *sigh* The SW community seems rather quiet lately…Mine seem to want to be written about in any form, so they could care less about what I do. I think they prefer one shots b/c they get something to do. *shakes head, trying to figure out what the difference it*
Oct. 26th, 2006 07:16 am (UTC)
Re: A Much Worse Situation
*Tilts head consideringly to the side* I just - I have a hard time seeing Obi-Wan becoming Dark for Anakin's sake, under cicumstances like those. I think he might give in and agree to do what he must to protect Anakin, but like you said 1) Anakin wouldn't let him because he would not allow himself to be separated from Obi-Wan that way and 2) Obi-Wan has his own special connection to the Force, and if he was going to fall, it would've been in that moment when Maul gave Qui-Gon the killing blow. He came through that crucible intact. And as we all know, Obi-Wan is very, very, VERY good at swaying other people and skirting by on the very edges of truth. He might agree and he might even unbend enough to truly let enough of his pain bleed through to convince Sidious that he had indeed despaired and turned Dark, but there would be a core of him that Sidious could not touch. And once he saw that Anakin could not be turned away or swayed from his side (which I think would probably happen relatively soon afterwards), I think he and Anakin would combine forces and take Palpatine out. And Anakin would have not a qualm about doing it because 1) he would be in a fury over being used by the Teflon Spider as a way to breach Obi-Wan's defenses and cause him harm and 2) he would also be livid about the way Palpy had hurt Obi-Wan. It would be a double betrayal, since there's not only the hurt but the fact that the hurt was accomplished through the use of Anakin. A story like that would be painful and dark and ugly, at times, but Obi-Wan is a lot smarter and a lot more devious than Palpy gives him credit for. He'd find a way to seem to give in enough to convince Palpy and therefore protect Anakin, and then he would also figure out someway to avoid doing anything he would consider unforgivable without tipping his supposed new Master off to the fact that he's not really obeying his orders like a good little Sithling. So that slaughter at the Temple would never occur. Obi-Wan wpi;d either find a way to send word ahead so that an evacuation could occur before he or anyone else could get there, or else Anakin would be there to meet him on the steps and stop him in his tracks while he was still in the process of trying to figure out how to get around the order without simply actively disobeying it, since the Council would never agree to send Anakin alone after Grievous (knowing he wouldn't stand a chance without Obi-Wan there to help) like they did with Obi-Wan and would therefore still be on the planet while all that was going on. So things would still turn out right, in the end, and better than they do in RotS, because there would be a confrontation between them and the boys would end up saving each other and then combining forces to take Palpatine out. Obi-Wan might end up torturing himself for not being able to stop Order 66 from being issued off-planet and he might doubt himself for giving in even as much as he did (even if he only did it to fool Palpy and string him along until he could figure out a way out of the trap that had been set for Anakin and the others), but Anakin wouldn't let him dwell on it. He'd insist that Obi-Wan had saved them and done better than he or anyone else could have, in a similar situation. And I hate to say it, but with the adult population of the Order decimated by the war and possibly also by Order 66 and mostly only children left either way, the Order would be forced to change or die. It would probably end up being the best thing that could happen for the Jedi, short of a miracle. And since Obi-Wan and Anakin would've ended up unmasking and slaying the Sith Master and potential Emperor, who could say or do anything against them?

And of course I'm over the blasted limit . . .
Dec. 10th, 2006 07:03 am (UTC)
Re: A Much Worse Situation
There was always a core to Anakin that Sidious couldn’t touch-the part where Obi-Wan lived. I think Sidious would’ve slipped the information to Obi-Wan about Grievous immediately. Since he had abandoned Anakin for the moment b/c his focus had shifted, Anakin was not given a seat on the Council. Therefore, no slight was made to Anakin about not being made a Master. But, being Sidious, he’s paranoid and needs to plan every little thing. He wants Anakin where he can see him, so he still arranges matters in which Obi-Wan and Anakin are parted. Because he doesn’t believe that his new apprentice would ever be able to follow through with Order 66. So, his new apprentice has to go somewhere else-somewhere that he will still be of use to him.

Therefore, Obi-Wan is sent to Utapau to take care of Grievous-and the CIS leadership, as per his new Master’s orders and b/c the Jedi Council wished it. After all, one can’t have the Council be suspicious of anything. While he was gone on this mission, Palpy returned to his original idea-that of Anakin as apprentice. He worked on Anakin’s own fears about Padmé dying and his desire to stop death. So, under this temptation, Anakin fell to the DS and becomes a Sith too-we know that Sidious isn’t above having several DS associates and he may have thought that he had enough control over Anakin *and* Obi-Wan to keep them in line if he made them both his apprentices. Thus, he has the two most powerful beings in the entire Galaxy at his beck and call-and he knows just what he’s got. He’s got the power b/c he has them.

Or-and this is more likely-he was already planning to pit the both of them against each other. He’s not stupid. I agree when you say that Obi-Wan would never fall. Sidious would suspect this deception, thus he manipulated him into not telling Anakin his discovery. And then (again) worked on Anakin’s fears over Padmé dying, Obi-Wan keeping secrets from him-a valid fear b/c Obi-Wan *is* actually keeping a secret from him, and not trusting him at all. They both end up fighting-either on Mustafar or elsewhere, it doesn’t really matter b/c Sidious has his way. Either he will have Anakin or he will have Obi-Wan as his apprentice, but his plans has been fulfilled through their actions. Anakin destroyed the Jedi Order while Obi-Wan has destroyed the CIS and given Palpy the needed push to create the Empire.

I’m sorry for my fatalistic view. I wish I could be as optimistic as you are about any happy outcome from this kind of situation. But I am a big cynic when it comes to Palpy. I think he plans everything to the nth degree and beyond.
Dec. 6th, 2006 07:10 am (UTC)
Re: Jedi Trials and the Hell road take one
Unfortunately, I think we sometimes mix knowledge with intelligence and smarts with knowing stuff-often to disastrous results. Human beings are a very frustrating race. We end up becoming our own worst enemies b/c we all too often don’t know/don’t think about what we are doing and the implications behind our actions and words. The only thing that separates us from animals is our ability to speak-and even there I have my doubts.

True enough-but I don’t think Theed was supposed to be Obi-Wan’s trial, QG made it so with his idiocies. I think that had they not found Anakin, Obi-Wan would’ve been sent out on a mission like any normal Jedi would for his trials. It seemed to me that until they found Anakin, QG never believed that Obi-Wan was ready for his trials and he reacted accordingly. He always seemed to look down at him, to scold him for things. I don’t know, may be it’s just me who thinks that. I just tend to be cynical about QG. I don’t think he wanted to let Obi-Wan go off and become a Knight, for reasons of his own until he found himself a new toy. Whereupon, he couldn’t *wait* to get rid of him. So, b/c of his attitude, Theed became Obi-Wan’s trial out of necessity b/c Obi-Wan was *definitely* the person chosen to be Anakin’s Master.

Barriss’ Trial was definitely organic and natural but seems to be rather rare for them. Come to think of it, Obi-Wan is really the only one who never seems comfortable with his Knighting. And yet, he grew into it. Anakin, on the other hand, was over eager to become a Knight and then to become a Master, he never really allowed the Force to direct his path. I think he was often dictating to the Force and waiting for the Force to catch up to him. *shakes head* As a result, he never became a Jedi Knight in the truest sense of the word, if that makes any sense at all.
Dec. 6th, 2006 07:11 am (UTC)
Re: Jedi Trials and the Hell road take one
Yeah, he was all “what is that?” He had already thought of it automatically. Having been a part of the rebellion for three years, he’d have had this “a warrior never goes into danger without a weapon” driven into his head. But he probably wouldn’t have *drawn* it at the first sign of danger. Of course, he might’ve gone in with his blaster and pulled it out. Still…I think he was letting his warrior instincts guide him. I’m not so sure, in every encounter he’s ever had with Vader, there’s always been violence of some kind.

The Dark Side is conscious-or rather, the person is *affecting* that energy in certain ways. Therefore, it reacts according to the person/temperament. Fear will always color what one sees or how one reacts to a situation.

Of course, those clones might help you keep certain characters in line…
Dec. 6th, 2006 07:12 am (UTC)
Re: Jedi Trials and the Hell road take two
I thought cannon speaking he was more powerful than any one else. And, even though they may be synonyms, I don’t think they are the same thing at all. Strength is power that is controlled and understood, thus Anakin really wasn’t all that strong. He couldn’t really control what he had and he didn’t really understand it.

Well, there’s also the differing ways they apply their power/strength. Luke’s was definitely used more in the beginning as a warrior, not a peace keeper, that came later. So, they learned along different lines. Didn’t one of the books mention the theory that when a Jedi would use his/her power for something, it would rob another of their own power and that is why they feared/didn’t trust the Jedi?

I believe that he was weaker more because of the emotional/psychological damage than the physical damage. And because he just didn’t know what he was doing. He never really invested himself in the complete cycle of his training as a Jedi, only that which he wished to know and what applied to his situation. *shakes head* As a result, he was never as strong or as good as he could’ve been. I think, had he been less dependent upon others, he could’ve defeated Palpy, easily. He just fooled himself into thinking he had no greater power than what he now had-and that he needed his new Master to get by. *shakes head*

*whistles* Oh, isn’t that right? Though if he really read half the stuff JW wrote, would he be as thankful? Yup, but you found a few references I wasn’t aware of.

Thank the Flannelled Great One for *that* veto. I couldn’t have handled an Obi-Wan clone-I’d have been screaming for Zahn’s blood if he did that to poor Obi-Wan after all the crap he endured in life. Give the guy a break in the afterlife-I certainly have. *g*

May be we should introduce them to the concept of letting others help themselves for only then will they truly learn to appreciate what they have. Think they’d understand? If we use words of two syllables or less?
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